Ghostwriting - The Publishing Industry's Best-Kept Secret!
In this interview, Derek Daniels has turned the tables on Bob Olson by interviewing him about his career outside of being editor of OfSpirit.com—Ghostwriting! Since we have a Writing category on Of'Spirit.com, we thought we would include the transcript of this interview here.
Derek Daniels: We are so pleased to be talking today with Bob Olson, a ghostwriter of nonfiction books. Welcome Bob. Could you tell our audience the answer to the most basic question, "What is ghostwriting?"
Bob Olson: Hi Derek. Ghostwriting is when someone writes something for a client while the client gets the credit for writing it. It could be a book, a speech or an article. I specialize in nonfiction books, so the clients who hire me get credit as the book's author.
| "Ghostwriting is when someone writes something for a client while the client gets the credit for writing it." |
D: Why do you enjoy writing books for other people?
B: Personally, being an author has been one of the most gratifying experiences of my life. I later became a ghostwriter to help people share that same experience. I believe everyone has an interesting book inside of them, and many people have a book that could truly benefit others by offering readers knowledge, hope, understanding or inspiration. Autobiographies are the perfect medium for this. If the people I help to become authors gain half the fulfillment I have experienced as an author, they will forever be grateful that they made the investment.
D: Is ghostwriting cheating?
B: No, ghostwriting isn't cheating. However, it is surprising to many people. The general public just isn't aware of how many books are actually written by someone other than the author. Yet ghostwriting has been a common and acceptable practice in the publishing industry for years. In fact, it is more popular today than ever, with many of today's best selling books having been ghostwritten. I recently heard that upwards of forty-percent of published books today are ghostwritten. The reason it isn't cheating is because it is the author's ideas, concepts and stories that create the book. Often, it is their exact words, as told to the ghostwriter via hours of recorded interviews. The ghostwriter simply puts these ideas, concepts and stories into words in such a manner that creates an organized, captivating and marketable book.
| "The reason [ghostwriting] isn't cheating is because it is the author's ideas, concepts and stories that create the book." |
D: Why do you think ghostwriting has become more popular than ever?
B: I think the growing popularity of hiring a ghostwriter is indicative of today's lifestyle. Most successful people today don't work from 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM. A ten or twelve hour day is the norm. So lack of time is likely a key factor for the rise in popularity of ghostwriters.
A second factor may be that hiring a ghostwriter has become trendy. It's a status symbol to have a ghostwriter writing your book for you. It means that you have something important to say, that you are too busy to write it yourself, and that you have enough money to hire a ghostwriter. Not everybody can afford to hire a ghostwriter, at least not a talented one. So it becomes a rich person's luxury, of sorts. Plus, since the top ghostwriters can only write a few books a year, their talent becomes a luxury that few are able to obtain.
| "... lack of time is likely a key factor for the rise in popularity of ghostwriters." |
D: But you're a published author, a successful public speaker, and an internationally known magazine editor and article writer. Why would you write books for other people when you could continue writing your own books?
B: I've done the author thing with all its prestige and celebrity. I've been interviewed by talk show hosts on television and radio. I've been interviewed by journalists for magazines and newspapers. I've had the photo shoots. I've spoken if front of large audiences. I've done the book signings. I've even been asked for my autograph while walking down the street. And while all of that gave me a rush of excitement and a temporary ego boost, that isn't what motivates me to get up in the morning. I have realized that what I really love about writing books is the writing, not the promoting. Ghostwriting allows me to do that while leaving the promoting to the authors who hire me. To put it in one sentence: I've been there and done that and now I do what I love most—write.
D: Doesn't it bother you that other people are getting all the glory for the product of your talent and hard work?
B: Oh, no. That's what thrills me about it. I love when my clients get to experience being an author. I love seeing them on television, hearing them on the radio or reading about them in a magazine. I fully enjoy seeing their careers take off because of their new author status. It's extremely fulfilling to me.
As I said, books are a collaborative effort. It's a win-win. While I do the writing, it is my clients' stories and knowledge that make their books possible. I wouldn't have these great books to write if it were not for them. Together, we teach, inspire and entertain a lot of readers. While I could be writing my own books, I only have so many stories and lessons to share. I'd be repeating myself an awful lot. Ghostwriting allows me to write about people, subjects and worlds of which I would never otherwise have reason to write. I feel grateful to have this job and to get to know these remarkable people whom I call clients. The truth is that I get plenty of glory for my talent and hard work. It may not be what most people would consider glory. But it is my definition of glory, which is all that really matters.
| " Ghostwriting allows me to write about people, subjects and worlds of which I would never otherwise have reason to write." |
D: What kind of books do you write for people?
B: The possibilities for ghostwriting are endless, from autobiographies to business books to self-help books. I've done each of those, but I tend to enjoy writing about people's lives the most. Whether it is an autobiography or the story of some average Joe (or Josephine) who had an extraordinary experience, that's where my passion lies. Some people want to write a biography about their deceased loved one, as a legacy of sorts, where the family members become the authors. I particularly enjoy writing people's stories that bring hope and inspiration to readers, books about someone who overcame illness, poverty, abuse or other hardships, books that show the power of the human spirit. And I'm absolutely nuts about celebrity rags-to-riches stories because they inspire young people to follow their dreams.
Here are a few of the types of books I would consider ghostwriting:
 | Autobiographies of anyone interesting. |
| Books about famous people that offer hope, inspiration or life lessons. |
| Stories about ordinary people with extraordinary experiences. |
| Stories of people overcoming adversity, illness, poverty, abuse, hardship. |
| Rags-to-riches stories. |
| Self-Help books. |
| Business success books with something new to offer. |
| Spiritually focused books. |
| Books about people with unique gifts or talents. |
| Books written to establish the author as an expert in their field. |
D: Other than lack of time, why do most people hire you to ghostwrite their books for them?
B: People hire me to write their books for four reasons:
- They don't have the TIME to write a book
- They don't have the TALENT to write a book
- They don't have the DISCIPLINE to finish a book
- They don't have the KNOW-HOW to properly structure a book.
People hire me to ghostwrite their books because they don't have the time, talent, discipline or know-how. I really respect my clients because it takes honesty, personal insight and courage for many people to admit that they don't have what it takes to finish a book on their own. It also indicates to me that this person is a doer rather than a dreamer. Dreamers talk about the book they are writing or are going to write, but it never gets done. Doers who hire ghostwriters recognize that their book is not getting written so they find a way to get it done. That takes enormous strength of character.
| "People hire me to ghostwrite their books because they don't have the time, talent, discipline or know-how." |
D: You have become a highly sought-after ghostwriter. What makes your writing different than most ghostwriters that places your services in high demand?
B: I can only speculate. I guess it's because I bring more than just writing talent and book know-how to the table. First, I value trust and integrity above money. This is especially important with celebrities who are sharing their intimate stories with me. They appreciate knowing they can trust me.
Second, I'm more than solely a writer. I also have experience as a private investigator, a marketing consultant, a magazine editor and a published author. All of these careers have attributed to my ghostwriting success in their own unique way.
Third, I don't juggle three or four clients at a time like most ghostwriters. I generally focus on one book at a time so that I can put all my energy into it. That only allows me to write about two books a year, three at the very maximum, which instantly puts me in high demand.
And fourth, I don't rush my writing. Some are in too big a rush to make their money and get onto the next job. I absolutely love what I do, so I don't consider it work. I charge what I feel I am worth, so I'm not rushing to get to the next job, not juggling three clients at one time, and not resenting my clients for not valuing me. In the end, my relationship with my clients is one of mutual respect. And I believe all of this shows in my writing.
| Clients hire me for my writing talent, career experience, and the fact that I don't rush my writing or juggle several clients at a time. |
D: How has your experience as private investigator, a marketing consultant, a magazine editor and a published author improved your ghostwriting?
B: I guess I walked right into this question, didn't I? I'll give you a brief answer for each position I've held:
My experience as a private investigator taught me my interviewing skills, which is the key to being an extraordinary ghostwriter. By learning how to interview efficiently—getting the maximum amount of useful information in the minimum amount of time—I'm able to minimize the time I need from my clients and the time I need to transcribe the recorded interviews, as well as organize it all. My interviewing skills have also helped me to better capture my clients' voices. I often use many of the exact words of my clients from these interviews. And it is the interview process that teaches me the rhythms and patterns of their voices.
I also learned the importance of confidentiality as a private investigator while working for the most prestigious law firms in Boston. Trust within the author-ghostwriter relationship is just as important as the trust within the client-attorney relationship. In fact, it's sacred. My clients are going to tell me things that I won't use in their book. It is vital that they trust me with this information, and trust that I am able to know what should and should not be included in the book. My next experience is how I came to know what should or should not be used.
My experience as a marketing consultant honed my skill in image creation. Whether I'm writing a business book or an autobiography, I'm creating an image of that author within the reader's mind. As a result of my work in marketing, I have an intuitive sense of what to include and what to leave out. It is a balancing act that requires psychological insight, which is what marketing is all about. Each book needs to portray the author as having depth of character in order to keep the reader captivated. The balancing act comes in knowing how to attain that depth of character without revealing anything that will negatively affect the author. I want to include stories that show the author as human and flawed so the reader can relate to him/her, yet without revealing anything that will harm the author's reputation or image. On the other side, I want to show the author's most appealing qualities without making him/her appear egotistical. My marketing training has taught me how to achieve this balance instinctively.
My experience as a magazine editor trained me how to keep readers engaged. There is nothing worse than a boring book, which is why I interview people before accepting them as clients. First they need an enthralling story or something fascinating to teach. Then, from the book's title to the chapter titles to the subheadings within each chapter, there are strategic writing techniques that keep the reader mesmerized and wanting more. My magazine was online, so I got instant feedback from both website statistics and emails that taught me which articles and advertisements were being read the most. After almost four years of writing articles and advertising headlines, what I learned about writing spellbinding copy from this experience is worth its weight in platinum.
My experience as a published author taught me what sells to publishers and what sells to the public—not always the same material. I recommend that people write their books before going to a publisher, because, otherwise, they may end up with a book that the publisher wanted to write, which could be nothing like the book the client wants written. If publishers have control of the book's direction before it is written, they will require a book that fits a marketing formula. But the most successful books are those written from passion first, then packaged for marketing second. Authors who are passionate and driven to get their books published will always succeed, regardless of the formula used in writing their book. My experience as an author has taught me what makes a book a best seller and what makes a book a no-seller. This is one of the strengths I have as a ghostwriter: I know how to help people write best selling books. My clients have something important to say. I know how to say it. Voila! It's the perfect marriage.
D: Is it difficult to find a talented ghostwriter?
B: If you've ever seen the television show American Idol, where singers compete on stage for a recording contract, you've witnessed the astonishing number of people who think they are the next pop star yet they can't sing a single note on key. The same is true for dancers, actors and writers. Everybody seems to think they are extremely talented. Only a few truly are.
Naturally, as long as you have learned how to write, you can, in theory, write a book. That doesn't mean the book will be written with any degree of structure, rhythm or appeal. That doesn't mean the book won't be dull and difficult to read. It only means the book will be written. Writing a book and writing a book that will create word-of-mouth referrals from readers is the difference between finishing the New York Marathon and finishing in the top 100.
I know three people whose publishers hired their ghostwriter for them. It sounded like a good deal until the authors actually read what the ghostwriters had written. In all three cases, the authors (who are not writers) ended up writing most of the book themselves and letting their ghostwriter (who still got their full fee) simply edit it. These authors knew their names were going to be on these books and they were concerned for their reputation. They all described their ghostwriting experience as a "nightmare."
Interestingly, one of the ghostwriters who turned out to be a nightmare was a journalist for a major city newspaper. That actually turned out to be the problem; she wrote like she was writing a newspaper article, not a book. In another case, a book producer had assigned her best ghostwriter to the project, but it turned sour because the ghostwriter was working on three other books at the same time. She wasn't putting the necessary time into editing her writing was sloppy and left major gaps in the story and she wasn't available when the author needed her, so they were doing interviews on the phone at eleven o'clock at night.
I guess the moral of these stories is that YOU need to be in charge of hiring your ghostwriter, not your publisher. This isn't really surprising if you take into account a publisher's biggest concern—profits. Naturally, if profits from book sales are the number one priority, publishers are not going to want to spend much money on a ghostwriter. So while unsuspecting new authors would expect their publishers to choose a brilliant ghostwriter, what they are really getting is a cheap ghostwriter, the lowest bidder.
The answer to your question is "Yes." Finding a talented, dependable, trustworthy ghostwriter is difficult, but not impossible. Just remember that you often do get what you pay for. It certainly is true in this business.
| "I know three people whose publishers hired their ghostwriter for them... They all described their ghostwriting experience as a 'nightmare.'" |
D: What qualities make a great ghostwriter?
B: You have to be an exceptional writer. You have to understand how to pace a book to keep it interesting. You need to understand the sound and rhythm of words. You have know how to surprise your readers, how to keep them guessing about what's next. You don't want to be dull or predictable. You have to know how to write for two types of readers: the reader who scans and the reader who reads every word. You have to know how to insert emotion into your writing, even for self-help and business books. You have to know how to edit, and when to have someone else edit your writing. And you need to be able to accept someone else's edits without getting all bent out of shape.
Just as important, to be a successful and talented ghostwriter, you need to know how to interview properly—how to guide the interview and extract the necessary details that may be embarrassing, painful or upsetting for the client to recall. And you need to do this with compassion.
You also must have integrity and be exceptionally trustworthy. Again, confidentiality is vital. And you must never judge your clients for what they have done or not done. You need not agree with everything your client has done, but you must never judge him/her either, knowing that no person can judge another until you have walked in his/her shoes. Plus, you must remain unbiased and tell the story your client wants told—not the story you want told. If you don't want to write that story, you shouldn't accept the project.
And finally, you must be able to remove yourself from your writing and become the client. You must be able to capture your client's voice and write with the emphasis, rhythms and style of their personality, not your own. Like an actor who becomes the character he plays, the ghostwriter must become the client during the writing. Very few actors and even less writers are able to do this effectively, yet it is essential to great ghostwriting.
| "...you must remain unbiased and tell the story your client wants told—not the story you want told." |
D: How did you get into ghostwriting?
B: It occurred quite by accident. After my first book was published, I began meeting lots of other authors. One of those authors asked if I'd help him edit his next book. So I did. Then I did it for another. Then another. One day, through word of mouth, one author asked me if I would write his next book for him. At first I was reluctant, but he was encouraging and rather persistent. So I accepted the project and the book turned out to be a best seller. It was somewhat frustrating for me because I couldn't tell anyone about it since I agreed by contract not to reveal that I had written it. However, I grew to accept it and this is when I first recognized what it felt to be a ghostwriter, with all its obscurity.
My second ghostwriting job was with a woman who was making a career change. She had actually hired me as a marketing consultant (while I was still doing that work) to help her change professions from corporate consultant to personal coach. I suggested that she establish herself as an expert in her new field by writing a book. Authorship is one of the most effective marketing tools for accomplishing this. When I was unable to recommend a reputable ghostwriter to her, she asked if I would write the book for her (knowing I had done it before). I initially declined the offer because I had another ghostwriting job being offered. I later decided that her job was more of a challenge, and therefore, something I needed to do.
My third book was for an up-and-coming celebrity who wanted me to write her autobiography. She had an ongoing radio show and had done a television series based on her work. She had an absolutely intriguing story but wanted the book done as quickly as possible. So I pared her up with myself as co-author because I had a story that paralleled hers and had chapters that were already written. By only having to write her chapters, the book was completed in half the time. I played our chapters off one another so that the reader was able to see two perspectives of similar journeys. It was a contrast that worked brilliantly for both parties, making our individual stories more interesting than if standing alone.
It was shortly after this last book that I recognized how fulfilling and rewarding these jobs had been. This is when I decided to ghostwrite full-time, and I haven't looked back.
D: Do ghostwriters always remain anonymous? Do they ever get credit? And how does this relate to the ghostwriting fee?
B: The credit question depends on the desires of the ghostwriter and client/author. There are several possibilities. I usually work by a set fee without any share of the royalties. It's simpler that way, cleaner. I don't want to be chasing anyone down for my share. It makes for better client-ghostwriter relations, as well. However, the ghostwriting fee can also be lowered for a share of the royalties. It's commonly one-third, but it could be one-fourth to one-half of the royalties. I'm open to lowering my fee a bit for a share of the royalties when my client has a name that is guaranteed to sell hundreds of thousands of books. Otherwise, I'm more of a "bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" kind of guy. So if your name isn't Britney Spears, Mel Gibson or Wayne Dyer, I'm not interested in a share of the royalties.
The same is true for the credit given to a ghostwriter. The writer's name might appear on the cover, usually after the author's name (as a co-author). It also might say something like, "with Bob Olson," or "as told to Bob Olson," or "Bob Olson, contributor." Sometimes the ghostwriter's name doesn't appear on the cover but is mentioned on the back inside-flap, on the spine only or in the acknowledgments. Because I have generally attracted clients who don't want to make it known that their books are ghostwritten, this hasn't been much of an issue for me. Nevertheless, I'm always open to discussing it. Unfortunately for potential clients who want to use a cover credit to negotiate my fee, it doesn't hold much weight. As I've mentioned, I'm no longer interested in being famous. I leave the recognition for my clients.
| "I usually work by a set fee without any share of the royalties. It's simpler that way, cleaner." |
D: What happens once the book is written?
B: It depends on the client. Most clients obtain a literary agent or publisher, if they don't have one already. A few authors prefer to self-publish, especially business owners or people who do a lot public speaking or seminars. Generally, however, the client does what they want with their book and I'm off to write my next one.
D: So how does someone approach you to write his or her book?
B: The first step is to call or email me. I'm an easy guy to approach. I keep the first conversation casual to see if I'm even interested in the book they want written. That's why emails work well because the potential client can tell me what their book is about before we talk.
If I'm interested in the book project, I then want to know if I connect with the client, that we understand one another. We'll be working together for up to six months if I accept the project, and in most situations I'll be interviewing them for about thirty hours, so we need to enjoy each other's company. But if a person I find interesting presents me with an intriguing story or concept, chances are I'll accept the project. It's at this point where we discuss costs.
People can email me at bob@bobolson.com or call me toll-free at 1-888-604-4317 to discuss a book they'd like written.
| "The first step is to call or email me. I'm an easy guy to approach" |
D: What happens once you accept a book project?
B: We have a second meeting, either in person or by phone, where we discuss the book in further detail and determine a projected schedule. It is at this point that I need to get a handle on the outline of the book. Then, after the interview, I create a preliminary outline and timeline that we agree upon. This is when we begin the recorded interviews based on that outline. All interviews are recorded and transcribed so that I can refer to them while writing. The interview process may take place once a day for two or three hours at a time, or over the course of a few days all at once (which is my preference), depending on the client's availability.
Once the interviews are done, there may be other preparations on my end: reading articles, interviews and books; watching video footage; listening to speeches or workshops the client has given; attending seminars or shows given by the client; interviewing family members, friends, and colleagues; any preparation necessary related to the book's content. When all this is done, I begin writing, which can take three to four months. I usually spend another month on final edits. Most projects take five to six months total depending on the amount of preparation necessary and the availability of the client.
D: It's amazing that ghostwriting continues to be the publishing industry's best-kept secret.
B: Yes, I think that authors and publishing executives are afraid that it might shock or confuse readers to learn that the book they just read wasn't really written by the author. The result is that few people talk about ghostwriting unless you are in the industry and understand it already. A similar secret is that there are people called "book producers" who create, edit and package books for some publishers. This is especially common with series books, such as The Complete Idiot's Guides. Most people assume that the publisher is doing all this work in-house, but it's not always the case. The truth is that these aren't really "secrets" that anyone is keeping from the public. Ghostwriters and book producers are necessities of the industry. They are just not widely understood by most people outside the publishing business, so they appear as secrets.
D: Thanks so much, Bob. Do you have any final advice for people considering hiring a ghostwriter?
B: You're welcome, Derek. It's been my pleasure. I guess my final advice would be to take this decision seriously. Take your book seriously. Even more than the clothes you wear, the car you drive and the house you own, your book is a representation of you. It conveys an image—your image.
It is also an incredible opportunity to connect with people, whether that be your fans, your customers, your students or the general public. Your book is one of the most intimate conversations you will have with these people. Essentially, you are talking to your readers in their bedroom, at their desk, on the plane or sprawled out on their living room sofa. You need to take advantage of this rare opportunity to really connect with your audience. Whether you are teaching them something, inspiring them with your "triumph of the human spirit" story, or simply connecting with your fans through your autobiography, your book is an extension of you. This is not some ten-minute television interview. This is a ten- to twenty-hour relationship with your readers (the average time it takes to read a book).
When you realize the importance of this, you realize that you need to hire a ghostwriter who is going to convey what you want to say with integrity, passion and attention to detail. Don't accept just any ghostwriter. This is not the time to be frugal. This is an investment in your career, your personal fulfillment, maybe even your lifelong dream. Treat this book like you would any venture that represents who you are. This is your book. Keep in mind that long after you leave this world, your book is going to continue teaching, inspiring or entertaining future audiences. Recognize the magnitude this book could have on your life, and make sure you team up with a ghostwriter who will make you proud to say, "This is my book." | "...your book is a representation of you... you need to hire a ghostwriter who is going to convey what you want to say with integrity, passion and attention to detail." |
To contact Bob about ghostwriting your autobiography, self-help book, business book or how-to book, call (207)967-9892 or visit www.BobOlson.com .
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